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Spike/Fred instead of Wesley/Fred: Yes or No?

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  • Spike/Fred instead of Wesley/Fred: Yes or No?

    Wesley/Fred is my least favorite romantic sexual relationship in the Buffyverse because it makes the least sense. Fred chose Gunn over Wesley and then chose Knox over Wesley. Even if Fred never met Spike, her suddenly being attracted to Wesley makes little sense.

    We see Spike and Fred are attracted to each other already in "Just Rewards" (A 5.02); Fred (of the Fang Gang) is the least into the idea of destroying Spike; Fred literally spends time and effort (and money) trying to recorporealize Spike; and Fred doesn't seem to at-all mind that Spike's probably seen her wet naked body.

    Spike was flirting with Fred already in "Just Rewards" (A 5.02) and in "Hellbound" (A 5.04) saves Fred rather than himself. Spike after "Destiny" (A 5.08) decides not to go be with Buffy. Spike in "Damage" (A 5.11) tells Andrew not to tell Buffy that Spike is alive and well. Spike later tells Angel that Spike is staying in Los Angeles because it's what "she would have wanted" and he's most likely referring to Fred.

    Story-wise, Spike/Fred is much better than Wesley/Fred. It gives an actual good reason why Spike wouldn't simply leave Los Angeles to be with Buffy. Spike/Fred would be much more interesting and dynamic than Wesley/Fred (and certainly sexier and hotter). The dynamic between Spike and Illyria would be much better and more interesting and Spike/Illyria would probably happen. Spike would also be a much better teacher for Illyria than Wesley could be.

    Wesley/Fred wasn't a good story for Wesley. It made him a sap and his relationship with Illyria was very creepy because it entirely revolves around her literally wearing Fred's 'shell'. It would have been much better for Wesley/Lilah to continue or even Wesley/Eve to happen (I'd prefer Wesley/Lilah).

    Wesley/Fred wasn't a good story for Fred and mostly seems to simply set up Fred's death. Hers being with Spike would set up better conflicts with Angel and within the Fang Gang and make her more interesting and dynamic. If she still died and turned into Illyria, it would add better meat to her story than hers being with Wesley did.
    16
    Spike/Fred
    18.75%
    3
    Spike/Illryia
    6.25%
    1
    Wesley/Fred
    31.25%
    5
    Wesley/Illyria
    6.25%
    1
    Gunn/Fred
    6.25%
    1
    Gunn/Illyria
    0.00%
    0
    Wesley/Lilah
    25.00%
    4
    Wesley/Eve
    0.00%
    0
    Angel/Fred
    0.00%
    0
    Angel/Illyria
    0.00%
    0
    Spike/Drusilla
    6.25%
    1
    Angel/Darla
    0.00%
    0

  • #2
    How about neither?

    I hate Wesley/Fred for all the same reasons you listed, but Spike/Fred would have also been a terrible idea. After three seasons of BtVS where Spike was completely in love with Buffy and changed himself and his identity over her, he gets not only to stick in LA and not tell Buffy he's alive again (which is terrible in itself), but has a serious relationship with another woman?! What?!

    I don't know how to vote in this poll. The only ships that make sense to me are those that had happened before, but Spike/Drusilla are definitely history, and while I liked Angel/Darla and Wesley/Lilah, Darla and Lilah were dead in S5 (though I guess you could say Lilah was 'less dead'). Is the question what relationships I'd like to see if the people involved hadn't been killed off?
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

    Comment


    • #3
      Spike/Fred were caring together but I don't get a strong romantic/sexual chemistry between them personally. Spike was flirting, but it was pretty shallow and clearly to try and win Fred over and get her help (I think she even called him on it iirc). He saved her above saving himself because he is heroic, it wasn't Fred specific. I think it was good for Spike to not be in a proper romantic relationship for a good time. The season was about him making a path for himself, starting to work out what hero he could be/wanted to be. Having a romance would have been a distraction to that and wouldn't have served the character development as much. And as TTB says, it would have jarred a bit after all the time he had been so focused on his relationship with Buffy to have just moved on straight away like that. So no, I don't think any of them would have been good inclusions for Spike.

      I also agree the Spike/Dru relationship is history and Angel/Darla obviously wasn't possible without resurrection (again!). The Spike/Angel interactions took the space of a romance for both of them in the season (and no I'm not saying it was romantic, just that it was the 'other' significant dynamic that was explored for them both and which forwarded their individual development too). I didn't like Fred/Wes as a couple but I found Wes/Illyria interesting because of Wes' grief, but not as a romance.

      There just aren't any romances that I think the season would have been 'better' for having.

      Comment


      • #4
        TimeTravellingBunny

        * AtS S5 exists and the thread regards the reality of that existence. Spike doesn't go be with Buffy and we see Spike's attraction to and liking of Fred. We see Fred's attraction to and liking of Spike.

        If the TV Buffyverse ended in "Chosen" (B 7.22), Buffy and Spike would possibly be in Heaven together (along with Joyce and Anne) or Willow would make Buffy immortal and Buffy and Spike would be together forever.

        Spike/Fred makes sense if Spike wasn't going to leave Los Angeles and be with Buffy.

        In addition, we see Spike 'move on' from his great loves and his great loves are also his 'muses'. He could 'move on' from Cecily Underwood to Drusilla Keeble to Buffy Anne Summers to Winifred Burkle to Illyria.

        I don't know how to vote in this poll. The only ships that make sense to me
        It's a poll; I simply included all the pairings that could actually happen in AtS S5. Lilah Morgan isn't 'dead'; she's probably more 'alive' than Angel, Spike, and Harmony are 'alive'. Darla was brought back to life and could be brought back to life again.



        Stoney

        * How much "romantic/sexual chemistry" was between Gunn/Fred and between Wes/Fred before they got together and even when they were together?


        * I don't recall Spike's ever flirting with anyone he wasn't physically attracted to.


        * When did Spike risk his life for anyone else to the extent that he did for Fred in "Hellbound" (A 5.04)? The closest I can think of is his defending Dru to The Judge in "Surprise" (B 2.13). Spike wouldn't have done similar for any of the other members of the Fang Gang; he wouldn't have done similar for Xander, Andrew, probably Willow, and we can't be certain he'd do similar for Buffy.


        * Spike needs a muse and is aimless without one. Spike wasn't doing anything special in AtS S5 that he couldn't have been doing being with Buffy and the Scoobies. If anything, Spike was simply trying to prevent Angel's becoming human.


        * Spike wants to be with the best female of 'his world'. Thinking now, Spike/Lilah Morgan could be interesting.


        * In AtS S5, it seems Spike considered Buffy would be celibate until Spike finally decided to 'be with' her again. It's one of the weakest parts of AtS S5 because Spike stays in Los Angeles because he's concerned about Buffy/Angel but he's also confident enough that Buffy won't 'move on' from him even though she knows he's dead and/or doesn't want to even contact her.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
          * I don't recall Spike's ever flirting with anyone he wasn't physically attracted to.
          But so much of that is about subjective interpretation. Unless Spike says outright that he is physically attracted to them and we have no reason to suspect he'd be lying, it comes down to whether you think he is attracted to them or not. And even if he does think someone is attractive, he could be flirting with them intentionally to try to charm them and try to win them over, not necessarily to try to start anything between them. His behaviour around Lydia Chalmers was very like that too. He was also suggestive with Sheila in School Hard because he was luring her as well. I've no idea if he thought she was attractive, he just wanted her compliant.

          As I said, I don't see strong sexual chemistry/attraction between Spike/Fred. They care about each other. Both can be capable of seeing that the other is attractive and it not go any further than that for either of them. And Spike is trying to charm Fred and she knows that ("I know he's been playing me with the looks and the smiles. I'm not some idiot schoolgirl with a crush." Hellbound). And I agree with TTB that it wouldn't sit well against S7 for a romance in AtS 5 for Spike. I just don't think him actively pursuing a relationship in the season would have worked. His season is about looking to what hero he can be and developing in being souled, not in his love life.

          * When did Spike risk his life for anyone else to the extent that he did for Fred in "Hellbound" (A 5.04)? The closest I can think of is his defending Dru to The Judge in "Surprise" (B 2.13). Spike wouldn't have done similar for any of the other members of the Fang Gang; he wouldn't have done similar for Xander, Andrew, probably Willow, and we can't be certain he'd do similar for Buffy.
          What?! Spike risked his life to hide Dawn's keyness from Glory just because it would upset Buffy if anything happened to her. And souled, he put his life on the line and sacrificed it for the wider world full of people he didn't know in Chosen. He became heroic souled and was willing to die for others. Hellbound underscores this willingness to put himself fully on the line for people that aren't his 'one and only' love. He gave up the chance of being corporeal for Fred because he could do that and save her, not because she was a significant other to him. That would miss the point entirely I believe.

          * Spike needs a muse and is aimless without one. Spike wasn't doing anything special in AtS S5 that he couldn't have been doing being with Buffy and the Scoobies. If anything, Spike was simply trying to prevent Angel's becoming human.
          Nope, I disagree. Spike was exploring what being a hero was without just tagging himself onto the lady he loves. AtS 5 is about Spike developing who he can be and wants to be as an independent hero. He falls and fails in some ways, he ends up falling under Angel's mission, but it is about exploring who he can be. To reduce his development in AtS 5 to just wanting to stop Angel being human is bizarre to me. Yes, part of him wanted to take that from Angel in Destiny, but that was only in part, he also wanted to achieve and attain for himself, to find out who he could be and what he could be worthy of. Their comparisons/competitiveness runs through the season for them both, but it is about how they are processing who they are.

          * Spike wants to be with the best female of 'his world'. Thinking now, Spike/Lilah Morgan could be interesting.
          Since when has that been Spike's constant motivation for his partners?? Spike falls for different people for different reasons. His relationship with Harmony was in great part about image/status for him because there was pretty much zero emotional regard in there and sex/arm candy was what she gave him. But Dru's status, whatever that is seen to be(?), didn't have anything to do with his relationship with her. She seduced him then murdered/sired him and that was the basis of their connection. Buffy's status as the Slayer did play a part in his attraction to her I'd agree, but he didn't want to be with her because she was viewed as being 'the best female of his world'. I think this is possibly more about how you view him/his partners?

          * In AtS S5, it seems Spike considered Buffy would be celibate until Spike finally decided to 'be with' her again. It's one of the weakest parts of AtS S5 because Spike stays in Los Angeles because he's concerned about Buffy/Angel but he's also confident enough that Buffy won't 'move on' from him even though she knows he's dead and/or doesn't want to even contact her.
          I don't think this is true at all. Spike fears returning to Buffy, he isn't thinking that she'd be waiting for him. His insecurities about how he is perceived and how it diminishes his sacrifice, how he can follow that, is all part of how/why he is trying to process who he can be now as a hero. He actually ends up falling foul of the same grand gesture approach in the end. But it makes it more of a genuine path travelled to me that he didn't just get it right first time.

          As always I'm left somewhat floored by how totally differently we perceive the character and his journey. I'm happily just going straight to agreeing to disagree because I don't think we will get anywhere to bridge this chasm.

          Comment


          • #6
            I really did not like Wesley/Fred, but I thought Spike and Fred worked better as a friendship then anything more.

            Comment


            • #7
              Stoney

              * Hmm, actually “flirting” is improper word choice, as it means “behave as though attracted to or trying to attract someone, but for amusement rather than with serious intentions” [OED].

              So, he was flirting with Lydia Chalmers (“Checkpoint” (B 5.12)) and Shelia (“School Hard” (B 2.03)).

              He was coming on to Buffy in “School Hard” (B 2.03) and at later times. He was coming on to Faith in “Dirty Girls” (B 7.18). He was coming on to Fred in “Just Rewards” (A 5.02) and at times after.


              * I consider Spike/Fred showed more sexual chemistry than Gunn/Fred and then Wes/Fred. And what Fred was doing for Spike and what Spike did for Fred in “Hellbound” (A 5.04) goes way beyond mere friendship.


              * Nothing detracts from the reality that Spike didn’t go back to Buffy in AtS S5 and that Spike and Fred were sexually attracted to each other and liked each other and greatly cared about each other. Spike/Fred happening makes more sense than Wes/Fred and Spike’s not being with Buffy again yet staying in Los Angeles.


              * My quote: “When did Spike risk his life for anyone else to the extent that he did for Fred in "Hellbound" (A 5.04)? The closest I can think of is his defending Dru to The Judge in "Surprise" (B 2.13). Spike wouldn't have done similar for any of the other members of the Fang Gang; he wouldn't have done similar for Xander, Andrew, probably Willow, and we can't be certain he'd do similar for Buffy.”

              - Spike in “Intervention” (B 5.18) had a plan to escape Glory. If Glory got Dawn, Spike would have likely died in the aftermath anyway.

              - Spike in “Chosen” (B 7.22) assumed he was going to a heavenly dimension. Anyway, he was also dying to destroy Sunnydale and probably permanently close the Hellmouth. He wasn’t choosing to remain incorporeal possibly forever merely to save a single person.

              - At most, Spike would have done for Drusilla, Buffy, and Willow what he did for Fred in “Hellbound” (A 5.04) and that’s partly because he would consider that they could make him corporeal again. With Fred, Spike’s only hope as that Buffy and Co. would eventually be informed of his situation.


              * Spike in AtS S5 was essentially ‘working for’ Lindsey MacDonald and the ‘PTB’. Then Spike was working for Angel and Co. and Angel put Spike on payroll.

              Again, nothing Spike was doing in Los Angeles was better or whatever than what Spike would have been doing in Buffy and Co. If anything, what Spike was doing was much less.


              * Spike doesn’t consider Harmony Kendall one of his great loves. She was merely rebound and a Buffy substitute. Cecily Underwood, then Drusilla Keeble, then Buffy Anne Summers was “the best female ‘of his world’”.

              Harmony wasn’t about “image/status” for Spike given it was clear that Spike’s minions found Harmony annoying.

              But Dru's status, whatever that is seen to be(?), didn't have anything to do with his relationship with her. She seduced him then murdered/sired him and that was the basis of their connection.
              It seems you want to dismiss the entire Spike/Dru relationship or you’ve ignored and/or forgotten everything Spike’s said about it. Anyway, there’s a Spike/Dru thread on this Board, so, I’ll not detail Spike/Dru here other than it’s beyond clear that Drusilla’s power is a key reason Spike’s so into her. He calls her “my black goddess” and later Harmony refers to Drusilla—when she doesn’t know it’s actually Dru—as “some cheap Queen of the Damned to dress up as your precious Druidzilla”.


              * Spike wouldn’t have been attracted to Buffy if Buffy wasn’t the Slayer.

              Spike doesn’t ‘settle’. Even if Spike sired Willow in “Initiative” (B 4.07), he still also would have sired or killed Buffy.


              * Did you forgot “Just Rewards” (A 5.02), “Damage” (A 5.11), “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20)? In-‘verse, it seems the only reason Spike didn’t go be with Buffy again is because Spike was concerned how a human Angel could possibly affect Buffy/Spike. In-‘verse, it seems Spike only considered Angel was competition for Buffy’s romantic and sexual affections.

              As always I'm left somewhat floored by how totally differently we perceive the character and his journey. I'm happily just going straight to agreeing to disagree because I don't think we will get anywhere to bridge this chasm.
              Well, your regard for Spike/Dru is clearly a defining difference regarding our regards for Spike.



              Priceless

              I really did not like Wesley/Fred, but I thought Spike and Fred worked better as a friendship then anything more.
              For the characters, for the story, for the reality of the situation, Spike/Fred made more sense than what happened in AtS S5.

              Willow/Tara was great enough and interesting enough that it was better than having Willow/Spike.

              Wesley/Fred was simply sappy and didn’t make much sense from Fred’s side. It seems even most of the dark Wesley stuff from AtS s4 was removed from Fred’s memories. Fred chose former ‘gangster’ Gunn over Wesley. She’s clearly shown to be sexually attracted to Spike and greatly care about him.

              I consider the Spike-Willow friendship more interesting than what became of the Spike-Fred friendship.

              Comment


              • #8
                That's your perception though, I just see meaningless flirting with no true intention to act on it. I don't see sexual chemistry at all and I think they are just being caring towards each other. They are fond of each other, but there isn't a relationship vibe there at all to me. We inherently see the dynamic differently, I can live with that.

                There were many believable reasons why Spike didn't choose to return to Buffy straight away. Yes, they wrote it that way because the character was committed to being in the series, but it can make coherent character sense that he didn't choose to go back to her straight away. None of that has anything to do with Fred. You stating things as fact or reality doesn't make this any more than my individual subjective interpretation against yours.

                Whatever reasons Spike ever had for being with Harmony, they were all shallow and he didn't much care for her. Even when he is souled he acts cruelly towards her, the most he can offer is that 'someone' cares about her, but nothing himself. It wasn't until S10 that he acknowledged he treated her poorly in the past. She certainly isn't someone he ever loved, he barely tolerates her.

                I think Spike states that he doesn't return to Buffy because of not feeling confident of how to follow his exit or some such. He is insecure about how she will respond to him and perhaps doesn't want to hear her try to withdraw her statement of loving him. Who knows. He certainly has insecurities about Angel and his own worth, but I don't think that is the only in-verse factor given and which makes logical sense in why he doesn't return to Buffy straight away. Certainly his entrance in S8 and the timing/need for getting involved supports that he didn't feel comfortable just rolling up without a purpose and need to be there.

                I don't dismiss the significance that Dru played in Spike's life, but I definitely don't romanticise it. She seduced William, conned him with promises of everything he wanted and then murdered him to create a soulless demon as a companion that she wanted because Angel and Darla focussing on each other was frustrating her. Spike wanted to be everything to her, all that she wanted, and she repeatedly made it clear that he wasn't and she wouldn't be loyal to him (from the get-go in fact as we come to see in Destiny). Spike seemed often to be trying to keep her happy. It was probably far easier and more satisfying a relationship when Angel became souled and left them, but that was probably part of why Spike was so deeply frustrated/jealous with how readily she turned from him and towards Angel when he returned unsouled. They were on the ropes from that point in S2 onwards. His hurt with her fickle behaviour is clear in the FFL flashback and that behaviour marries to the references of their breakups we get before then too. Unsouled he chooses to turn away from the relationship definitively in Crush and we've never seen them meet in canon since he became souled. Despite the fact that he has related his siring to being a victim since being souled, I'm sure he would still feel a strong connection to her. I just don't know any more what the boundaries of that regard would be. I think I posted some such in the Spike/Dru thread when it was started. So, yes, I do think our perceptions of Spike/Dru are significantly different in how we see Spike. But I think our perceptions of most, possibly all, relationship dynamics Spike has with other characters differs too, rather than that one being a stand out point of disagreement. This is why I'd say that we just disagree on him as a character overall. After all these years of failing to agree on him I'm far happier agreeing that we just don't see him the same.
                Last edited by Stoney; 05-01-18, 05:19 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The relationship between Fred and Spike reminds me more of the relationship between Dawn and Spike as between Buffy and Spike. I don`t see any sexual attraction on either side.

                  I like Fred and Wesley together. I have to admit, that I have only watched season 5 of AtS but why do you think their realtionship is shallow or not authentic ? If she has chosen Gunn over Wesley before, it seems to not have worked out and she made a new choice obviously. And she never chose Knox over Wesley. She was very lamely flirting with Knox, but that was over long before he turned out to be an Illyria worshipper.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MikeB View Post

                    Priceless

                    For the characters, for the story, for the reality of the situation, Spike/Fred made more sense than what happened in AtS S5.

                    Willow/Tara was great enough and interesting enough that it was better than having Willow/Spike.

                    Wesley/Fred was simply sappy and didn’t make much sense from Fred’s side. It seems even most of the dark Wesley stuff from AtS s4 was removed from Fred’s memories. Fred chose former ‘gangster’ Gunn over Wesley. She’s clearly shown to be sexually attracted to Spike and greatly care about him.

                    I consider the Spike-Willow friendship more interesting than what became of the Spike-Fred friendship.
                    Could you be more specific as I'm not sure what you mean by 'Spike/Fred made more sense that what happened in AtS S5' - what happens to make you think this?

                    Definitely agree that Willow was better off with Tara than with Spike. Willow is too cerebral for Spike imo, he would miss the physicality he had with Buffy.

                    I am not a fan of Wesley. Everyone seems to think he had some massive character changes through the run of both shows, but all these changes seemed very superficial to me and very much only on the surface. I agree Fred and Gunn was a more interesting relationship than Fred/Wesley.

                    Fred does greatly care for Spike, but I don't know wher you are seeing 'sexual attraction' between the two. They like eacho ther, and Spike is a terrible flirt, but I see no overt sexual attraction on Freds part.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like Spike's friendship with Fred. I'm okay with Fred/Wesley, overall, although I think I would rather not have it there (and I would REALLY rather have Fred there! I love her). But I think Spike's non-romantic relationships are actually the best part about his character. He's vaguely brotherly to Dawn in the best way, he fights with Angel and Xander, and he's friends with Fred.

                      I also don't like how Fred was a love interest in some way or another for almost every man on the show (she was into Angel to start, dated Gunn, dated Wesley), generally at the same time. Especially since at first she wasn't really in a good mental place for a relationship anyway. So I like her being friends with Spike better than I like her dating Spike.
                      gay (1999-present)

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