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MeToo, Abuse of Power and Allegations of Sexual Assault

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  • #31
    Originally posted by flow View Post
    It gives me the impression that Joss is running low on creativity. Re-using a gag is always a bad idea no matter if it was a bad gag in the first place or not. I don't have the full context of what was behind the Wonder Woman script but wasn't that something he wrote and it was never used at all? It seems to show once again that he can not come up with anything new and creative (and non-sexist). To be honest - that doesn't bode well for the upcoming The Nevers series.

    flow
    Joss's writing changed when he started doing Firefly for whatever reason. His female characters stopped being about themselves and started being more about punishing women so men can feel sorry for/respect them. By and large they are not characters in their own right. The Joss's Wonder Woman wasn't really about WW. It was more a Steve Trevor movie. It's in the same lane as that Inara story he wanted to do on Firefly, the Illyria arc, etc. His earlier work did have traces of that, but it wasn't as bad. Now it seems like it's all it is.

    The job of a director isn't to simply dictate to actors. It's to help provide guidance and help the actor find the meaning of the scene. If the director can't do that, they aren't really doing their job. Not that there is a meaning to such a scene. But that's the climate he seems to work in. i remember when words disrespect and degrading were used about another Joss scene from way back. The response from most fans wasn't sympathy. It was Joss is God, shut up and do it.

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    • #32
      Unless he'll be more specific I see nothing to discuss here. Although it's a little funny to see how easy people pile on someone nowadays.

      Comment


      • Lostsoul666
        Lostsoul666 commented
        Editing a comment
        I don't think its funny to pile on someone. People are innocent till proven guilty.

      • Alce
        Alce commented
        Editing a comment
        Not in today's climate, they don't. Besides I never said that it's funny to pile on someone, but it's funny to me to see all this people all full with righteous indignation over some nonsense and how often they themselves are becoming next target for the mob attack.

    • #33
      I have just now watched those two scenes that have been mentioned here - the one from Age of Ultron and the other one from Justice League on YouTube.

      To be quite honest, I don’t find either scene sexist. I don’t find them funny either. If at all the first one was remotely funny because of Scarlet Johansen saying „Don’t turn green“. There is actually nothing awkward about a man falling on a woman. It’s desperately made to be awkward in those scenes and there is such a pathetic vibe about it that I feel embarrassed for Joss Whedon. If I hadn’t known the second scene was from Justice League I would have guessed it was from a seventies B-movie.

      flow
      ................................ Banner by buffylover

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      • TriBel
        TriBel commented
        Editing a comment
        I watched Justice League a few weeks ago (it's on Prime or Netflix) and I was shocked by how bad it is. It's not just the "fall". I haven't seen Jenkins' film, but Wonder Woman in the Whedon movie made me think I'd been transported back to the 50s.

    • #34
      Originally posted by flow View Post
      I have just now watched those two scenes that have been mentioned here - the one from Age of Ultron and the other one from Justice League on YouTube.

      To be quite honest, I don’t find either scene sexist. I don’t find them funny either. If at all the first one was remotely funny because of Scarlet Johansen saying „Don’t turn green“. There is actually nothing awkward about a man falling on a woman. It’s desperately made to be awkward in those scenes and there is such a pathetic vibe about it that I feel embarrassed for Joss Whedon. If I hadn’t known the second scene was from Justice League I would have guessed it was from a seventies B-movie.

      flow
      The reason Joss gets flak is because he's very quick to run his mouth about others. You mention 70s B-movies, well, that's pretty much in line with his criticisms of Jurassic World.

      He's out there preaching about social justice, then, if this story is true, does the opposite. You say you're empowering women, but when a woman says they have an issue with a scene because they feel it's objectifying and you tell them to shut up and do it or you'll ruin them... It's not a good look.
      Last edited by HardlyThere; 04-07-20, 04:21 AM.

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      • #35
        The original Buffy movie script had Buffy have her Slayer dreams/senses come with her menstrual cycle
        That's not a problem for me. I was told that in the movie the slayer essence comes from Artemis, IDK. Nevertheless, Artemis is a lunar Goddess and the lunar cycle = menstrual cycle's a common motif. It's in the TV series and particularly obvious in the church in Beneath You. The scene's lit with blue moonlight but the first thing we see is an icon of the Virgin/Mother. Artemis (who was Diane for the Romans) was Goddess of the Hunt and of childbirth. Christianity tamed her by turning her into Mary. It's probably the reason the message about the scythe is Latin written in Greek characters and hidden behind a statue of the Madonna. Angie Hart's Blue in CWDP references it: "I fell into the moon/And it covered you in blue". For me, it's actually a sign of female empowerment because it widens the possibility of what Woman can be. There's also an oblique reference in AtS. Hyperion was the father of Helios, Eos and Selena. Eos = Dawn; Selena = personification or Goddess of the moon.

        As for the originally criticism, I'm with flow - I don't find the actual fall particularly sexist. It doesn't objectify Black Widow because she's the one talking and doing. It's used in S1 of Lucifer but given a twist because it's Chloe and Maze and the latter's pansexual. It might be questionable in JL because of the overall portrayal of Wonder Woman (IMO, JL is a B-Movie. It's awful) but the problem's really with Whedon's (alleged) response to the actress.

        JW might be advised to either keep his mouth shut or stop using irony/sarcasm as a defence mechanism. I never know quite how to take him - hence I tend not to listen to him.
        Last edited by TriBel; 04-07-20, 10:28 AM.
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        • BtVS fan
          BtVS fan commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm not sure how threatening a person's career can be interpreted in anyway as irony or sarcasm ?

        • TriBel
          TriBel commented
          Editing a comment
          @BtVSfan - I meant "keep his mouth" shut in general - not with regards to this specific incident. I often find it difficult to know when I should take his words at face value and he's being sarcastic...hence I stopped relying on him for comment. TBH, I thought JL was a shockingly bad film and WW a dire portrayal of a female superhero and all my sympathy's with GG.
          Last edited by TriBel; 04-07-20, 03:27 PM.

      • #36
        Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post

        Joss's writing changed when he started doing Firefly for whatever reason. His female characters stopped being about themselves and started being more about punishing women so men can feel sorry for/respect them. By and large they are not characters in their own right. The Joss's Wonder Woman wasn't really about WW. It was more a Steve Trevor movie. It's in the same lane as that Inara story he wanted to do on Firefly, the Illyria arc, etc. His earlier work did have traces of that, but it wasn't as bad. Now it seems like it's all it is.

        The job of a director isn't to simply dictate to actors. It's to help provide guidance and help the actor find the meaning of the scene. If the director can't do that, they aren't really doing their job. Not that there is a meaning to such a scene. But that's the climate he seems to work in. i remember when words disrespect and degrading were used about another Joss scene from way back. The response from most fans wasn't sympathy. It was Joss is God, shut up and do it.
        That happened long before Firefly. In early Buffy it happens to Cordelia a lot. On the rewatch it was also noticable how often she is in peril/screaming for help and needing to be saved by Buffy. The whole plot of BBB is Xander wanting to put a spell on her to feel the pain she caused him. Is repulsed by that at the end, nope it actually makes her get back with him

        We do get a bit with Buffy but thats more in S4. The whole Parker scenario felt like set up just for Riley.
        Faith is miss slut Orama and in S4 we have Willow calling her this cleavage slut bomb.
        I would say it happens to Kendra to but it doesn't. Her death is literally laughed off "that was such a drag"
        S1 of Angel has him saving good looking blondes for quite a few episodes.
        Last edited by BtVS fan; 04-07-20, 01:14 PM.

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        • #37
          Joss might be an ******* in real life but he has the "spark" even if he might have peaked early.

          For example, the Boom buffy comic is all "woke " behind the scenes and in the content but is decent/mediocre at best.

          As for the director of "Man of Steel" I dont get the hoopla about his work. There's something "off" about his movies.

          Comment


          • #38
            Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

            That happened long before Firefly. In early Buffy it happens to Cordelia a lot. On the rewatch it was also noticable how often she is in peril/screaming for help and needing to be saved by Buffy. The whole plot of BBB is Xander wanting to put a spell on her to feel the pain she caused him. Is repulsed by that at the end, nope it actually makes her get back with him

            We do get a bit with Buffy but thats more in S4. The whole Parker scenario felt like set up just for Riley.
            Faith is miss slut Orama and in S4 we have Willow calling her this cleavage slut bomb.
            I would say it happens to Kendra to but it doesn't. Her death is literally laughed off "that was such a drag"
            S1 of Angel has him saving good looking blondes for quite a few episodes.
            I said his earlier work had traces of it. It's even laced in his comments like fans like it when Buffy cries. He's just talking about himself, I think.

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            • #39
              I find it downright hilarious that Joss is apparently getting more flack for visual gags than for things like having Buffy hook up with her serial killer stalkers. But anything is fine by me, if it finally makes people to realize how overblown his feminist street cred is
              Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

              Comment


              • #40
                All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                All written in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.





                I did a very cursory glance through this thread.



                * Joss Whedon isn't perfect, but "Me Too" and extreme 'wokeness' has somehow resulted in some wanting to tarnish Joss's record and contributions to pop culture and society.



                * Joss created Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffy Summers is still the 'go to' when discussing Strong Female Character. Joss and Sarah Michelle Gellar maybe not appreciating each other enough doesn't discount or detract from that.



                * Joss did Willow/Tara. That at least significantly helped the gay rights movement.



                * Joss largely singlehandedly got the Writers Guild of America a better contract when the Writers Strike was happening.



                * Joss is responsible for making Black Widow a character outside of her 'sex symbol' status. And thus he's arguably responsible for at least $10s of MMs that Scarlett Johansen made off the the success of The Avengers. Joss maybe wanting 'The Hulk' to fall into Black Widow's breasts--I don't see what's wrong with that.



                * Joss made Pepper Potts more of an equal with Tony Stark in The Avengers movies.



                * Charisma Carpenter is bitter about the Cordelia/Connor storyline. Joss wasn't going to have Angel/Cordy; so, her bitterness is simply hers not liking the writing of Angel S4. Cordelia had massive forced importance in Angel.



                * Cordelia isn't in Angel S5 because she was contracted as 2nd Lead and the producers didn't even want to pay David Boreanaz a higher salary than James Marsters. I don't see why James would want to take a massive pay cut and be below Charisma Carpenter instead of going to be on Charmed or whatever and be Alyssa Milano's on-screen boyfriend.



                * Regarding Justice League. It's not Joss Whedon's fault that Avengers: Age of Ultron and Justice League weren't better movies. It's the studios's fault.

                Before all this 'Synder Cut' hype--which happened after Joss's ex-wife posted that Joss cheated on her--, Warner Brothers was considering doing a 'reboot' and doing a Flashpoint thing to do that. Even the Wonder Woman and Aquaman movies might have been affected by that. If the 'Synder Cut' is liked well enough, the current cast still have jobs in the DCEU.



                * This whole 'Cancel Culture' and 'wokeness' have at times taking thing WAY TOO FAR. Nobody is perfect and things need to be reflected on when things happened. But now we have Woodrow Wilson's name being taken off buildings at Princeton. And some want to 'cancel' George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

                Taking Andrew Jackson off the $20 bill was already outrageous. Yes, Jackson isn't perfect. He's also responsible for a massive expansion of the United States and a massive expansion of democracy in the United States.

                Harriet Thuman is a remarkable person. She doesn't compare to the others on US currency.



                * It's very highly doubtful that if Joss Whedon had say cast Sarah Michelle Gellar/Prinze as Captain Marvel that SMG/P would have refused. We don't see David Boreanaz or James Marsters in post-Angel stuff that Joss has done. It's not as if SMG needs to do stuff for Joss for little money.

                Does anyone think Much Ado About Nothing would have been less successful if Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters played the leads?



                * I might go through this thread later--to discuss the Joss stuff, not the Scott Allie stuff. But it's one thing to tear down Confederate Statues and remove the Confederate flag from the Mississippi State flag. It's another to 'cancel' the Founding Fathers.


                Joss not being perfect doesn't lessen everything Joss has done in the entertainment business, the feminist movement, pop culture, and Western society. And Whedonverse viewers shouldn't try to lessen Joss.

                Comment


                • #41
                  Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                  * This whole 'Cancel Culture' and 'wokeness' have at times taking thing WAY TOO FAR. Nobody is perfect and things need to be reflected on when things happened. But now we have Woodrow Wilson's name being taken off buildings at Princeton. And some want to 'cancel' George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

                  1. Fears over "cancel culture" are overblown and usually stirred up but Alt Right figures and the media to undermine social justice issues. How many people are truly "cancelled" as opposed to just having to lay low for a while until they could continue as normal again? Very few people are truly "cancelled", even when some of them probably should be. You know a lot of everyday people are "cancelled" from their jobs for a lot less, right? People who will suffer major financial hardships if they become unemployed and who don't have thousands of fans to rally behind them when they mess up?

                  2. Whedon's past work on BtVS doesn't give him a free pass to be an abusive ******* on set. It doesn't give him a pass to abuse his position of authority/power by sleeping around with actresses who worked for him, either. You can admire some of his work (as I do) and still hold on him accountable for his bad behaviour (as I do too). I like BtVS. I like it as a collaborative piece with a lot of different people making it into my favourite show of all time. Whedon's episodes of the series also remain my favourite BY FAR. But I also don't think it means he can behave however he wants.

                  3. What's more ridiculous? "Cancelling" George Washington or expecting African Americans to admire a man who kept their ancestors as slaves? Put your patriotism aside for a moment and actually think about that. Think about what you're complaining about and what you expect other people in a very different position to you to think and feel about someone who kept their ancestors in chains.

                  * Charisma Carpenter is bitter about the Cordelia/Connor storyline. Joss wasn't going to have Angel/Cordy; so, her bitterness is simply hers not liking the writing of Angel S4. Cordelia had massive forced importance in Angel.
                  This is completely baseless - and offensive too. Charisma isn't "bitter", for one thing. Charisma has stated on multiple occasions that she made peace with what happened on the series a long time ago and has even made peace with Joss himself. Charisma has also been candid in acknowledging her own personal issues and how her anxiety and issues on set (not remembering her lines etc) would have made things difficult for production and that she felt guilty about requiring an Acting Coach to be with her during shooting. Furthermore, it's pretty insulting you have reduced Charisma's legitimate hurt at being punished for becoming pregnant and ME's inflexibility to accomodate her to "she was bitter about a storyline."

                  * Cordelia isn't in Angel S5 because she was contracted as 2nd Lead and the producers didn't even want to pay David Boreanaz a higher salary than James Marsters. I don't see why James would want to take a massive pay cut and be below Charisma Carpenter instead of going to be on Charmed or whatever and be Alyssa Milano's on-screen boyfriend.​​​​​​
                  Again - completely baseless. Please provide a quote from anyone at The WB or Mutant Enemy where they have stated that they didn't want to pay David Boreanaz, the star of their show, a higher salary than one of their other cast members.

                  ​​​* Regarding Justice League. It's not Joss Whedon's fault that Avengers: Age of Ultron and Justice League weren't better movies. It's the studios's fault.
                  To be honest, this is the kind of attitude that have annoyed people about Whedon and his fanbase for years. It's always 'somebody else's' fault whenever Whedon writes something bad or unsuccessful. Sometimes there's truth to it (FOX showing Firefly completely out of order) and other times it's completely unfounded. Did the studio make Joss write cringy joke after joke in AoU? Did they make him have characters speak wildly OOC? Did they make his directing look like a slightly above budget TV show? AoU was a mess of a film and that's pretty much all on Joss. Over the last few years he has developed a very unfortunate habit of undercutting every opportunity for serious drama or gravitas with a "joke" to the point is becomes obnoxious. AoU was plagued with this and the film itself lacked focus and kind of just meandered on. It felt soulless and depressing.

                  ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                  • BtVS fan
                    BtVS fan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Leaving aside the abuse allegations. Whedon and his quips is a bit of a trope nowadays anyway . What might have been fresh in 1997 got tired long before 2020

                • #42
                  Originally posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
                  I find it downright hilarious that Joss is apparently getting more flack for visual gags than for things like having Buffy hook up with her serial killer stalkers. But anything is fine by me, if it finally makes people to realize how overblown his feminist street cred is
                  Pretty sure it's less about the lame joke itself so much as the threat to ruin someone over it.

                  Joss will be fine. He's teflon. The left in the US only eat their own so far as they don't have to acknowledge they were wrong about something.

                  Comment


                  • #43
                    Originally posted by MikeB View Post
                    All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

                    All written in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.





                    I did a very cursory glance through this thread.



                    * Joss Whedon isn't perfect, but "Me Too" and extreme 'wokeness' has somehow resulted in some wanting to tarnish Joss's record and contributions to pop culture and society.



                    * Joss created Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffy Summers is still the 'go to' when discussing Strong Female Character. Joss and Sarah Michelle Gellar maybe not appreciating each other enough doesn't discount or detract from that.



                    * Joss did Willow/Tara. That at least significantly helped the gay rights movement.



                    * Joss largely singlehandedly got the Writers Guild of America a better contract when the Writers Strike was happening.



                    * Joss is responsible for making Black Widow a character outside of her 'sex symbol' status. And thus he's arguably responsible for at least $10s of MMs that Scarlett Johansen made off the the success of The Avengers. Joss maybe wanting 'The Hulk' to fall into Black Widow's breasts--I don't see what's wrong with that.



                    * Joss made Pepper Potts more of an equal with Tony Stark in The Avengers movies.



                    * Charisma Carpenter is bitter about the Cordelia/Connor storyline. Joss wasn't going to have Angel/Cordy; so, her bitterness is simply hers not liking the writing of Angel S4. Cordelia had massive forced importance in Angel.



                    * Cordelia isn't in Angel S5 because she was contracted as 2nd Lead and the producers didn't even want to pay David Boreanaz a higher salary than James Marsters. I don't see why James would want to take a massive pay cut and be below Charisma Carpenter instead of going to be on Charmed or whatever and be Alyssa Milano's on-screen boyfriend.



                    * Regarding Justice League. It's not Joss Whedon's fault that Avengers: Age of Ultron and Justice League weren't better movies. It's the studios's fault.

                    Before all this 'Synder Cut' hype--which happened after Joss's ex-wife posted that Joss cheated on her--, Warner Brothers was considering doing a 'reboot' and doing a Flashpoint thing to do that. Even the Wonder Woman and Aquaman movies might have been affected by that. If the 'Synder Cut' is liked well enough, the current cast still have jobs in the DCEU.



                    * This whole 'Cancel Culture' and 'wokeness' have at times taking thing WAY TOO FAR. Nobody is perfect and things need to be reflected on when things happened. But now we have Woodrow Wilson's name being taken off buildings at Princeton. And some want to 'cancel' George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

                    Taking Andrew Jackson off the $20 bill was already outrageous. Yes, Jackson isn't perfect. He's also responsible for a massive expansion of the United States and a massive expansion of democracy in the United States.

                    Harriet Thuman is a remarkable person. She doesn't compare to the others on US currency.



                    * It's very highly doubtful that if Joss Whedon had say cast Sarah Michelle Gellar/Prinze as Captain Marvel that SMG/P would have refused. We don't see David Boreanaz or James Marsters in post-Angel stuff that Joss has done. It's not as if SMG needs to do stuff for Joss for little money.

                    Does anyone think Much Ado About Nothing would have been less successful if Sarah Michelle Gellar and James Marsters played the leads?



                    * I might go through this thread later--to discuss the Joss stuff, not the Scott Allie stuff. But it's one thing to tear down Confederate Statues and remove the Confederate flag from the Mississippi State flag. It's another to 'cancel' the Founding Fathers.


                    Joss not being perfect doesn't lessen everything Joss has done in the entertainment business, the feminist movement, pop culture, and Western society. And Whedonverse viewers shouldn't try to lessen Joss.
                    How the hell did Willow/Tara help the gay rights movement ? I can tell you now I watched lots of more important couples to on screen representation at the time and they were allowed to kiss and didnt say childlike dialogue either.

                    And to call Charisma bitter is both nasty and not true. Every time she has spoken of the subject she has been honest on her distaste for it but never bitter.

                    Amd how do you know what the studios wanted to pay David Boreanaz ?
                    David is also got and getting regular TV work as the lead so he doesn't need to be cast for anything else .

                    No Joss is not responsible for making Black Widow a character. She is simply a good looking woman who kills people in a Leather cat suit. That's not a character. If anything it's the Russo brothers who gave her some characterisation in Winter Soldier.

                    Jackson was a Slave Owner who also committed mass genocide Google the Trail of Tears. He did expand the US but he did not expand democracy.

                    How on earth have you moved a discussion of Joss Whedon to the Founding Fathers ? Btw Many of those Founding Fathers like Thomas Jefferson were Slave Owners including Tom keeping his own children as Slaves and using slaves in projects such as his factories. To ignore these historical crimes is wrong.

                    Comment


                    • #44
                      Sounds like the poster is confusing Boreanaz with Greenwalt. Greenwalt left because they wouldn't pay him what he wanted. They wanted him to take a paycut if I remember right.

                      The whole Jackson thing seems like a pretty obvious attempt to deflect...
                      Last edited by HardlyThere; 05-07-20, 11:37 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #45
                        Taking Andrew Jackson off the $20 bill was already outrageous. Yes, Jackson isn't perfect. He's also responsible for a massive expansion of the United States and a massive expansion of democracy in the United States.

                        Harriet Thuman is a remarkable person. She doesn't compare to the others on US currency.
                        Seriously? Let's face it, as a black woman (in Hurston's opinion "the mule of the world") and an ex-slave she had one hell of climb to achieve Jackson's heights. She wasn't a few steps behind him on the social staircase...more like 15 flights plus several elevators. The woman did good...and her name's Tubman.
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                        • StateOfSiege97
                          StateOfSiege97 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          yes, thank you...
                          one should at least get her name right...
                          and remember, re Jackson, The Trail of Tears....
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