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  • #16
    I didn't read every post in here, so I may have missed something..but wasn't Bruce's ending meant to be ambiguous?

    Obviously, BIG SPOILERS TO COME!

    It seems most of you are agreeing that definitely BW lived through the bomb blast and went on to escape from his past and Gotham to live with Selina. While I think that is certainly a valid perspective, the other one is that the happy ending for Bruce may have been a fantasy of Alfred's, and not necessarily reality. I, for one, choose to believe he did survive. But I think there was meant to be enough doubt there that the reality of the situation could be either way and still make sense.

    Many of you have already mentioned things that I agree with..but a few things:

    - Even though Bane was operating on a much grander scale than The Joker, and even though he was far more matched to Batman's capabilities than TJ...I found Bane to be less disturbing and frightening than The Joker was for me. The Joker made my skin crawl...and Bane seemed more like a regular comic book type villain. In that way, I felt like TDKR didn't live up to the intensity of TDK.

    - The scenes between Alfred and Bruce are always my favorite, I think they are the "heart" of the trilogy. Alfred just about made me cry at the funeral.

    - Loved, loved LOVED the quote from A Tale of Two Cities: "It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known." *sobs* Ugh..so perfectly suited. I adore it.

    Good movie overall, but I prefer BB and TDK. I did really enjoy the deeply engrained morality in this one; the realisation of how wrong the lies were in TDK, in what an hollow idol they had created, and how crippling it was to Bruce to have the truth about Rachel hidden...as well as the themes of redemption. The deep flaws and humanity of the hero made the eventual sacrifice and redemption that much sweeter.
    Last edited by BloodyHell; 04-08-12, 07:28 PM.
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    • #17
      I heard that many thought it was an ambigious ending but when I watched the movie I thought it wasn't ambigious at all. Fox finds out that Bruce fixed the autopilot months ago (meaning that the Bat could operate without pilot), the batsignal was fixed, Robin got a bag with the directions to find the batcave, which is likely done by Bruce after he fakes his death since he had no clue what would happen before his 'death' and Alfred has no reason to imagine Selina with Bruce since he only knows Selina as a thief.

      Also, like I mentioned before, Bruce surviving and moving on with his life is what completes his arc. The trilogy was about Bruce getting over his anger and setting himself free, away from the darkness. If he would die as Batman he wouldn't be free, he would've been stuck in the circle of being a hero and dying or becoming the villain.


      And okay I refuse to accept any other outcome than Bruce and Selina travelling through Europe and having fun.
      Last edited by Nina; 04-08-12, 10:15 PM.

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      • #18
        Teehee, yes, that is why I chose that ending also...I think Bruce dying would not have been a satisfying ending, and like you said, it would have continued the cycle of dying or becoming a villain.

        But I just wanted to bring up the fact that the trilogy doesn't necessarily HAVE to have a positive message or ending and that clearly it was meant to be somewhat open-ended and left up to the viewer to decide. Pretty trademark Christopher Nolan.

        But yes, there were a lot of clues that would lead one to believe Bruce survived the bomb. I did get the impression earlier in the movie that he intended to die in this fight, however. So he could have made preparations for this outcome before the final fight. Just playing devils advocate and being a party pooper. I'll quit now.
        Last edited by BloodyHell; 04-08-12, 11:34 PM.
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        • #19
          For those who choose to take the ending at face value... you have chosen wisely It just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny to introduce some fantasy jive. For one thing, is Alfred fantasizing seeing Bruce, and the insurance adjustors fantasizing the necklace, and Gordon fantasizing the repaired Bat Signal? And what is the tip off that this fantasy began? If we start down that road, maybe Bruce splattered himself trying to escape and the entire last act of the movie was his dying fantasy. Or maybe he went nuts after the Joker killed Rachel and the last half of the trilogy is. Or maybe he went crazy in a remote Asian jail and started fantasizing that a harmless humanitarian named Henri Ducard was actually a ninja master who would train him to become a hero in his old city and avenge his parents? See, there's no reason why any one of those is any less likely than any other; the only thing they have in common is that they make for bad movies.

          Another thing is, what is the point of an ambiguous ending if the story doesn't even tip off that there is ambiguity? Hans Zimmer's score is triumphal and soaring from the second the autopilot reveal is made -- is the message "yay, everyone is just fantasizing that Bruce is alive!", or just "ya'll thought Bruce was going out like that? You thought there was no more Bat?" Let context be your guide.

          When Bruce mentions the autopilot to Fox after he gets back, it is a very contrived moment in the conversation. He deliberately brings it up. He was laying the groundwork for an exit.

          I thought it was fantastically done, and if DC Comics were to decide to roll up the Batman franchise and retire it, that's how they should. I did cry a bit because of the power of Michael Caine's grief and his regret, his total contrition to Thomas and Martha... but I also loved that Bruce knew how to show him the truth, where to do it and how, and Alfred would understand it had to be that way.

          Blake is a cool character to me, I love his evolution throughout. It is well known that Nolan is no fan of Robin as a character, and I'm only luke warm to him as well most of the time. So he does a brilliant thing, realizing that there is something important about Bruce being a mentor, something important about a character to challenge his darker side. So he invented a cop that does everything in the film Robin would have been doing, and just calls him Robin by name as a shout out.

          I know nobody will ever continue Nolan's franchise, sans Nolan, and that the next Batman movie will be a relaunch, but I would watch the John Blake as Batman movie. I don't worry about his finances, though -- remember, the trades that were executed were fraudulent, and proving it was going to take time, and while that might not benefit Bruce's estate directly, it certainly benefits Wayne Enterprises, and I suspect Blake and Fox would manage to connect. I'd be more worried about Blake's actual skill. Comic-Bruce is one of, if not the, greatest hand to hand fighter in the world, trained at various points by Ra's, by Lady Shiva, etc. Movie-Bruce is an initiated member of the League of Shadows and a literal ninja. Both Bruces are among the smartest men in the world as well. John Blake is... not these things. He has a lot of work to do to get caught up.

          I'm a total Bruce and Selina nut, so I'm glad they didn't dawdle too much on Bruce and Talia as a romance -- in fact, other than as a call out to the comics and a misdirect, I have trouble seeing why she would have slept with him at all. Poisoning his soul with hope? But I'm really glad they went with the Bruce/Selina romance. I do want to know what kind of hell he caught from her for flat out lying about the autopilot? And I laughed when the adjustors mentioned the pearls, because I knew -- it's like he said, they look better on her anyway.
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          • #20
            Heh..King, I was never disagreeing that I believe Bruce to be alive. I've also agreed there is lots of evidence to lead us to that conclusion. All I was arguing was that I think Nolan meant to leave the choice up to the viewer. Bruce was shown to be still in the Bat 5 seconds before the bomb detonated. Since the blast radius was 6 miles, I find it requires some suspension of reality to believe he somehow got away soon enough. Hence, it does cast some doubt on the situation, when combined with how desperately Alfred wants to see Bruce alive and happy and free of being Batman.

            I'm not saying that extinguishes all the other evidence. Just saying that there is a seed of doubt in there, and that is typical Nolan style.
            I have loved you. - Ser Jorah Mormont

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BloodyHell View Post
              Heh..King, I was never disagreeing that I believe Bruce to be alive. I've also agreed there is lots of evidence to lead us to that conclusion. All I was arguing was that I think Nolan meant to leave the choice up to the viewer. Bruce was shown to be still in the Bat 5 seconds before the bomb detonated. Since the blast radius was 6 miles, I find it requires some suspension of reality to believe he somehow got away soon enough. Hence, it does cast some doubt on the situation, when combined with how desperately Alfred wants to see Bruce alive and happy and free of being Batman.

              I'm not saying that extinguishes all the other evidence. Just saying that there is a seed of doubt in there, and that is typical Nolan style.
              I think there's more than evidence to lead us to that conclusion; there's no evidence to lead us away from it. What's more, I think Nolan would look at us like we had a cat sticking out of our ears were we to ask him if Bruce was really alive at the end or if Alfred was fantasizing it. It's just not on the table. He did that movie already. Again, if nothing else convinces you, let Hans Zimmer convinces you. No way does a professional filmmaker who deserves to get paid for his work request a score that triumphantly heralds the dawn of a new age of Supporting Character Hallucinations. There would be something clearly melancholy about the whole thing if Nolan were going to, inexplicably, divert into something to maudlin. I'd push all-in on the gross for the entire Nolan trilogy betting that the face value ending was exactly what it appeared to be -- Bruce having escaped into retirement with Selina, leaving Gotham to rebuild and a new Dark Knight to... rise.

              Or put another way, I have to suspend a lot more than mere disbelief to think it's even on the table that there was a 'Bruce fantasy' ending than what modest disbelief I need to accept movie magic timing for Bruce to safely escape the blast. I mean, it took longer than 90 seconds from when the truck crashed, substantially, for the bomb to actually go off on screen, but that's about all the time that was left on it.
              Last edited by KingofCretins; 05-08-12, 04:24 AM.
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              • #22
                So...we've come to the conclusion that there is a whole lot of unbelievable stuff going on in this movie...and that we both believe Bruce to be alive.

                I know what you want is confirmation that either a)everyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and looking too much into things or b)Nolan never intended for it to be up for discussion.

                While I may agree with the first one, I can't agree with the second one. While Inception is "the" movie with the obviously open-ended conclusion, Nolan DOES like showing how our perspective can completely change our reality..we choose what we believe, what we think we see, whether it is truth or not. That has been a theme of every movie I have seen of his. And I think I've seen all of them. So when the last scene with Bruce is seen entirely from the perspective of grief-stricken and guilt-ridden Alfred, along with some other iffy details(including A Tale of Two Cities parallels in which Sydney Carton does indeed die)...I can at least nod to those who see the ending differently than I do. I don't think CN would look at them like they are crazy.
                Last edited by BloodyHell; 05-08-12, 05:19 AM.
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                • #23
                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                  I know nobody will ever continue Nolan's franchise, sans Nolan, and that the next Batman movie will be a relaunch, but I would watch the John Blake as Batman movie. I don't worry about his finances, though -- remember, the trades that were executed were fraudulent, and proving it was going to take time, and while that might not benefit Bruce's estate directly, it certainly benefits Wayne Enterprises, and I suspect Blake and Fox would manage to connect. I'd be more worried about Blake's actual skill. Comic-Bruce is one of, if not the, greatest hand to hand fighter in the world, trained at various points by Ra's, by Lady Shiva, etc. Movie-Bruce is an initiated member of the League of Shadows and a literal ninja. Both Bruces are among the smartest men in the world as well. John Blake is... not these things. He has a lot of work to do to get caught up.
                  Well he needs to train a lot, that's obvious. But if we take the comics as an example, Dick Grayson was a really good Batman. And he is not a ninja or as smart and structured as Bruce. Dick is still an acrobat and became a much more flexible Batman, he used his own style instead of copying Bruce. And I suspect that Blake will do that to, he needs to train himself in what he can do well and create his own style. It will take time and training (and I hope he will indeed get some gadgets and money through Wayne Enterprises eventually.) but he can be a good Batman.


                  That said, I don't have to see it. I've little interest in seeing a character Nolan made up because he isn't fond of the Robins being Batman for a movie, despite liking Blake just fine and thinking that it was a smart move to call him 'Robin' and insert him in de movie.

                  I prefer to see a Dick as Nightwing movie to be honest, a new Batman movie will be made anyway (rumor is 2016) because DC wants a JLA movie and if the Man of Steel movie doesn't flop completely, JLA will come to the big screen. Which hopefully also brings us a Wonderwoman movie, a well done WW movie to be exact. Just bring the whole DC universe to life; The big three, Birds of Prey, Batfamily members, a much better movie for Green Lantern etc.

                  Of course knowing DC, this will end badly.

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                  • #24
                    I don't think Man of Steel is going to flop. The teaser about had me vibrating through my chair. What they need to do is just marry themselves to Syncopy, where by they I mean Warner/DC Comics. Just work with Legendary and Syncopy on everything, make Nolan the DCCU puppetmaster.
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                    • #25
                      Hmm, I want to see Men of Steel before I can say if I agree with you. I want to know if they manage to capture Superman's tone in that movie. Making a good Batman movie is easier than making a good Superman movie I think. And I fear a bit that they want to copy the atmosphere of Nolan's Batman and use it for the other characters as well. Not sure how well that works with less ambigious characters and if the man who stripped Batman of all cheesy and supernatural features can deal properly with a god-like alien in blue spandex. If Men of Steel is awesome and a real Superman movie and not some Batman movie with Clark Kent instead of Bruce, I'm all for Nolan guiding the DC movie universe.
                      Last edited by Nina; 06-08-12, 12:09 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Actually, I hope that it has the same "this is happening in the real world" texture of the Nolan "Batman" movies, and I think it can be pulled off after having seen "Chronicle". Besides, there's no spandex -- they are going the New 52 route. In fact, the movie may have determined the New 52 route (it's a form-fitting Kryptonian battle armor now).
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                        • #27
                          I stopped reading Morrison's Action Comics after 3 issues, I liked it but it didn't interest me enough to continue. So I missed the "form-fitting Kryptonian battle armor".


                          But I'm not sure how well the DC universe fits the realism Nolan brought to Batman. I fear for the forced "dark & gritty = good movie" mentality, because most DC heroes aren't dark like Batman, they are hopeful creatures and true superheroes to the core. And while they shouldn't be a Stu/Sue, am I not in favor of changing these characters just to make them "one of us". I agree with Linkara (the comic reviewer); Marvel heroes are like us, DC heroes (minus crazy Bruce) are like we want to be.

                          Though I'm in favor to use Superman to ask questions about morality, involving our world. By example what is the place of a superhero in the system. Superman doesn't have to listen to anyone, can't be caught, can't be punished... he can play God in a world without one. But should he? And where does he stop himself? That's the kind of realism I want to see.
                          Last edited by Nina; 06-08-12, 02:03 PM.

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