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Best episode and season of Buffy and Angel [2]

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  • And what to do with the W&H lawyers? Those are in several seasons and sometimes the MotW.

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    • Put the individual ones in each time I think. They vary in how good they are in different seasons. I never really cared for Lilah at all in S1/2 and Lindsey is a whole different person in S5.

      Comment


      • I do like the idea of mixing AtS and BTVS. I'd like to have a S1 BtVS/AtS game, a S2 BTVS/AtS game and so forth until we hit S6/S7 when it can just be a BtVS game. With that in mind, I don't mind including the Big Bads. They don't automatically win for me. Faith is a more interesting Bad than the Mayor in BtVS S3. Between a BtVS S2/AtS S2, I could see a contest with Angel (the clear Big Bad), Spike (a smaller Bad), and Darla (a confusing bad because her most substantive bad acts are encouraging badness in the protagonist). S4 is Lilah's most sympathetic season- but I could see her easily beating the Beast and Cordevellia and maybe Jasmine in that season.

        However, for shorter, more intense games, I think we should limit it to the commonly recognized top 25 villains/MoTW between both seasons.
        Last edited by Dipstick; 29-04-14, 10:34 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Dipstick View Post
          OK- fair enough. I'd keep OMWF and CWDP for awhile. I like those eps- but not as much as many people. But that's it for the S6-7 eps. The rest, I'd gun for early. And Nina doesn't like OMWF and perhaps CWDP. I'm not sure how to play this intra-seasonal Buffyverse game with this crowd without running into this problem. Although, if the S6 winning eps were Bargaining Part II, OMWF, and Normal Again and the S7 eps were CWDP, Selfless, and Him, I wouldn't be gunning for those seasons so hard but that just goes to show how limited my appreciation for those seasons are.

          I didn't check the Dead Threads but has there ever been a Best Canon Ship game? A Best Friendship Game? A Best Slashy Subtext ship? Best Antagonistic Relationship? Best Prop? Best weapon? Best Set? Best MoTW Villain? Hottest Character? It could be fun and move the game out of late v. early season-divide stalemates.
          Him? Really? That's one of the worst BtVS episodes of all time, IMO.

          I don't think we've ever had any of those more imaginative game subjects, at least not since I've been on the forum... just best episodes, best episodes by writers, perfect season (best episode 1, best episode 2...) etc. (the latter was pretty fun in the end, Max wrote a really hilarious final post!).
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

          Comment


          • Who Are You? +
            Soulless -

            Smile Time - 4
            Origin - 5
            Shells - 5
            Spin the Bottle - 5
            Soulless - 3
            Deep Down -5
            Sleep Tight- 5
            Forgiving -5
            Benediction -5
            Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been? - 6
            Darla - 6
            Reunion - 5
            The Prodigal - 5
            Five By Five - 5
            To Shanshu in LA - 6
            Lies My Parents Told Me - 3
            Storyteller - 5
            Conversations with Dead People - 6
            Dead Things - 5
            Afterlife - 5
            Once More With Feeling - 5
            Intervention - 5
            Fool For Love - 5
            The Gift - 5
            Something Blue - 5
            Hush - 5
            Who Are You? - 6
            The Wish - 6
            Graduation Day Part I - 5
            Lovers Walk - 5
            Becoming Part II - 6
            Becoming Part I - 5
            Passion - 6
            Prophecy Girl - 5
            Angel - 2
            Out of Mind, Out of Sight - 5


            Reset Points At:
            30
            23
            15
            9
            5

            Eliminated:
            39.
            You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

            Comment


            • If we go for the villains; don't we have a problem with the demarcation? I mean; when is somebody a villain? By example is Connor one in Ats season 4? When is a villain important enough to be part of the game? Are villains always seperated in this game or do they also come in teams (like the Circle of the Black Thorn or the evil trio)?

              Comment


              • I give out-size credit to Him to actually being funny in S7. Here's my proposed list for a BtVS/AtS villains game.

                The Master- BTVS
                Luke- BTVS
                Darla- BTVS
                Lilah- AtS
                Lindsey- AtS
                Holland Manners- AtS
                Faith- AtS
                Russell Winters- AtS
                Marcie Ross- BTVS
                Mollock- BTVS
                Catherine Madison- BTVS
                Spike- AtS
                Penn- AtS
                Miss French- BtVS
                The Haxil Beasts + the impregnating men- AtS
                Ryan- AtS
                The Anointed One- BtVS
                Maude The Ghost- AtS
                The Three- BTVS
                The Scourge- AtS
                Barney- AtS
                Vannessa- AtS
                The Vocah- AtS
                Marcus- AtS
                Ronald Meltzer- AtS
                The men of Jhiera’s dimension- AtS
                Jack, Darin, the gladiatorial team enslaving the demons- AtS
                The Zookeepr- BtVS- The Pack
                Demon Mario- AtS
                Little Tony- AtS
                Richard, Harry, and the bachelor party who wanted to eat Doyle's brain- AtS

                I elected to not include people who turned villains temporarily through some kind of drug or mind-control (Angel in Eternity, Xander and his "pack" in The Pack, Dave and Fritz in IRYJ). I didn't put the body-hopping villain in Lonely Hearts- because it's entire character came from the people that it inhabited. Although, I'm open to including it. I also made a choice to not include garden-variety asses like Kate's dad or Snyder.

                However, yeah, I went way over my stated limit to include all the villains. Well, I'm sure we could eliminate a bunch in a hurry...I'm open to any revisions or disagreement. I know that it can get hairy- for instance, why not include faux!soulless Angel from Eternity but include full!soulless Spike in In the Dark. AtS S1 Faith and the bachelor party of demons bent on consuming Doyle's brain also have a cuddliness to them for different reasons- but I still put them in the villain category based on the clear awful of their actions.
                Last edited by Dipstick; 29-04-14, 11:08 PM.

                Comment


                • I don't think white hats going through troubles count as big bads/villains. So I wouldn't include Connor or S6 Willow. The good guys struggling don't count imo unless they are specifically changing sides (Angelus, Faith).

                  I think I would go for the main villains of the season and any that crop up in each episode across a single season. When they come in teams I think they get split depending on how they were faced, so I would put The Circle as a general one in its own right, but sebassis, vail and the politician (whose name I can't remember right now) would have their own entries because specific plots introduced/featured them. I'd put Jonathan and Andrew together in S6 but Warren separately.


                  EDIT: I don't understand this list, why would Spike be an AtS villain from one episode? I would split the seasons/shows for the villains personally.

                  EDIT, EDIT: Ah, are they a combined S1 of the two shows? Duh!!
                  Last edited by Stoney; 29-04-14, 11:19 PM.

                  Comment


                  • See, I would include good guys making deadly choices in the list. For instance, Holtz and S6 Willow have a lot in common morally. Although, I see that it's tough because S5 Wesley, S3 Buffy, S4 Fred and S2 Giles went on vengeance sprees- but they did a better job of (in the words of Tony Soprano) directing their rage, and power and anger at the a*sholes who deserve it. Connor did declare himself on the side of the maggoty-mind controlling demon that eats people not unlike S3 Faith- even though Connor had more noble goals starting out and came from a place of more serious mental trauma and illness. Maggie Walsh was definitely villainous- but she considered herself a good human being scientifically ridding the earth of demons. In that vein, I'm open to declaring Angel a villain in AtS S2- but that's a more open question because other than shutting the door in the basement he didn't exactly successfully commit a heinous act himself.

                    I agree with your demarcation of The Circle v. the individual players and The Trio v. Warren alone.

                    Yes, that's a combined S1 of both shows. I thought it was more interesting to keep playing a BtVS/AtS hybrid.
                    Last edited by Dipstick; 29-04-14, 11:30 PM.

                    Comment


                    • I see your point on the good guys going off piste. I don't think there is harm in including them then if they are hitting murky 'the police could feasibly have a case for pressing charges' waters. If people think it is understandable/easily forgivable they will presumably get voted out quickly. So Buffy stabbing Faith and Angel locking the lawyers in would count I think. It is hard to know where to draw the line at that end of things though. What about Wes/Spike torturing in S5, Angel killing Drogyn or Lorne killing Lindsey?

                      Comment


                      • You know, I thought about it and I don't think I should have argued to keep Connor and Willow in based on the morality of their actions. As far as I'm concerned, Angel sunk to comparable moral depths in S2, S3, and S5 of his own show.

                        I think we should just stick to the fact that it seems like it's written on the tin of the show that Connor and Willow become villains in AtS S4 and BtVS S6 respectively and wear the black hat/hair temporarily as opposed to Angel, Buffy or AtS Wesley who always get protagonist treatment. It can be a debate on how well they live up to the Ethos of a Villain, whatever that is. It'll be quite fair to vote against Connor and Willow because REAL villains commit to their evil. That is already a debate in Faith in AtS S1- still a villainess or doing bad acts as a cry for help?
                        Last edited by Dipstick; 30-04-14, 12:28 AM.

                        Comment


                        • I'd go with that. I think this one will work well. Do those who are still playing this game (which we have derailed somewhat last voting info below) want to finish this before starting a villains/motw one?

                          EDIT: I've seen the new thread is set up.

                          _______

                          Your last voters for this games were Dipstick, Sky, TTB...

                          Who Are You? +
                          Soulless -

                          Smile Time - 4
                          Origin - 5
                          Shells - 5
                          Spin the Bottle - 5
                          Soulless - 3
                          Deep Down -5
                          Sleep Tight- 5
                          Forgiving -5
                          Benediction -5
                          Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been? - 6
                          Darla - 6
                          Reunion - 5
                          The Prodigal - 5
                          Five By Five - 5
                          To Shanshu in LA - 6
                          Lies My Parents Told Me - 3
                          Storyteller - 5
                          Conversations with Dead People - 6
                          Dead Things - 5
                          Afterlife - 5
                          Once More With Feeling - 5
                          Intervention - 5
                          Fool For Love - 5
                          The Gift - 5
                          Something Blue - 5
                          Hush - 5
                          Who Are You? - 6
                          The Wish - 6
                          Graduation Day Part I - 5
                          Lovers Walk - 5
                          Becoming Part II - 6
                          Becoming Part I - 5
                          Passion - 6
                          Prophecy Girl - 5
                          Angel - 2
                          Out of Mind, Out of Sight - 5


                          Reset Points At:
                          30
                          23
                          15
                          9
                          5

                          Eliminated:
                          39.
                          Last edited by Stoney; 30-04-14, 11:33 AM.

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