True or False?

[Puppet]

Hmm, I don't know whether to pick true or false. On the one hand, we got one of my favorite scenes of the entire Buffyverse (Wesley about to chop off her head), on the other hand, her death seemed to be solely to give us the Cordy-is-evil-twist and she deserved better.

Statement: After S4's college-heavy focus, we got way too little college scenes in the following seasons.

[bespangeled]

I would have loved more Lilah in season 5, with the added bonus of getting rid of Eve. I would happily take dead!Lilah over all other W&H employees. Also, there was just enough college in the series

STATEMENT: Anya caused more death and destruction than the Fanged Four combined. Xander should have had a moment of realization, at least.

[Stoney]

True. Anya's past and particularly with her fond recall of it, is too ignored.

Statement: Whilst I do understand why it would have been totally boring boring writing if they'd done it constantly, Lorne's ability to give insight into the character's futures was unrealistically underused by them deliberately once he loses Caritas.

[Nina]

Agreed, although it's typical for a popular side-character who becomes a main character. Suddenly they need a new role and their old role is forgotten. At least his character didn't change all that much.


And because I've the feeling that Puppet was talking about BtVS and not Ats:
I agree that that season 5 should've done more with Buffy, Willow and Tara at university. It might have made the blow that Buffy had to drop out bigger as well.



Faith's fall of grace in BtVS season 3 was rushed.

[Priceless]

False. I thought Faith's fall from grace worked really well. She was perhaps underused in the season, but her actual fall made sense in what we saw and learnt about the character. I wouldn't have wanted the season to lean too heavily on Faith and her arc.

Statement - Season 4 BtVS gets better with every re-watch, while Season 4 AtS gets worse

[bespangeled]

False. Season 4 Buffy has Adam. Season 4 Angel has Orpheus.

Statement: The Initiative was an evil place where demons were tortured and killed regardless of the harm they could cause. Riley was a good soldier who just followed orders, which makes him a well meaning nazi.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

False to the Nazi part, because I'm cringing at that comparison. Vampires and most demons in BtVS are treated as beings evil by nature and not worthy of the human status. It's OK to kill them on sight, and if they are vampires and some other demon species, it's desirable. So, vanpires and demons on one side....Jews, Roma, disabled people (to be all killed) and Slavs and most non-white people (not deserving of the full human status) in the other...Same thing? Nope. There's no need to show why that comparison doesn't make sense, does it?

Statement: The distinction between "Angel" and "Angelus" and the habit of using them to refer to souled and soulless version of the vampire (as of late season 3 of BtVD) is one of the most absurd things Buffyverse has done, since "Angelus" is just the Latin version of the same name.

[Nina]

False. I think it makes sense. Most people who care about Angel are pretty eager to make the distinction because it justifies their positive feelings for a vampire with a very bloody past. It just simplifies things. And it's easy to make a distinction because the soulless version is so different from the soulled one (most likely because of Angel's depression that doesn't seem to effect him when he has no soul). And Angel just rolls with it to make it all a bit less ackward I guess. At the same time we see Spike call Angel 'Liam' in season 5, Angel calls himself 'Angelus' in War Zone and Darla uses 'Angel' when she speaks about the soulless vampire sometimes. So the vampires continue to make it all a bit more fluid, which again makes sense. After all, they understand better the nuances between soulled & soulless and human & demon.

The stuff in Orpheus on the other hand... that really didn't make sense.





Statement: The concept of what a soul is in the Buffyverse, should've been worked out better.

[Priceless]

Tough one, but I'm going to go for False . . . I think part of the reason these shows are still so popular and so open for discussion is precisely because questions like 'what is a soul' are left open for the audience to make their own minds up, and as a viewer I like that. I understand lots of fans want there to be a Buffy Bible and nothing ever deviates from the prescribed path, but that's not what I enjoy in storytelling. The soul can mean anything you want it to mean.

Statement - Willow was not addicted to magic as such, but to power and magic was only the conduit for that addiction.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

False. I think it makes sense. Most people who care about Angel are pretty eager to make the distinction because it justifies their positive feelings for a vampire with a very bloody past. It just simplifies things. And it's easy to make a distinction because the soulless version is so different from the soulled one (most likely because of Angel's depression that doesn't seem to effect him when he has no soul). And Angel just rolls with it to make it all a bit less ackward I guess. At the same time we see Spike call Angel 'Liam' in season 5, Angel calls himself 'Angelus' in War Zone and Darla uses 'Angel' when she speaks about the soulless vampire sometimes. So the vampires continue to make it all a bit more fluid, which again makes sense. After all, they understand better the nuances between soulled & soulless and human & demon.

The stuff in Orpheus on the other hand... that really didn't make sense.





Statement: The concept of what a soul is in the Buffyverse, should've been worked out better.

I think you missed my point. How does it make sense to use those two "names" to make such a supposedly big distinction, when it's basically the same name? That's like using Drusilla and Dru, or John and Johnny.

Re: Willow - true. Is there any other way to understand it whete it makes sense? Willow's whole characterization supports it.

Statement: Tara's death fits the Women in Refrigerators tripe (except for being used to motivate a female character), but doesn't really fit the Bury Your Gays trope that much (at least not in its original meaning).

[bespangeled]

False. Every single event in Buffy can fit in a trope of some sort. It's all tropes,which makes tropes a form of background noise. Tara's death was a tragedy - not a trope.

Statement: Joyce was a damn good mother with a daughter who refused to explain why she got in trouble for fighting in school, running off in the middle of the night, and burning down school buildings.

[Nina]

True. Sure she made mistakes, but everybody does. And she did very well considering the lack of help from Hank and Buffy's issues.



Statement: Wesley didn't deserve to be fired by the CoW.

I think you missed my point. How does it make sense to use those two "names" to make such a supposedly big distinction, when it's basically the same name? That's like using Drusilla and Dru, or John and Johnny.

Ah, gotcha.

Still don't think it's really true though. The name has a different ring to it. But it might have ben nice if they used 'Liam' from time to time, or at least showed that other characters besides Angel, Darla and Spike knew about that name.

[ghoststar]

False. Wesley utterly failed to offer a directionless Slayer the minimum emotional and logistical support. We saw that Giles frequently went patrolling with Buffy during her first couple of years in Sunnydale, helped coordinate her friends' backup efforts, helped her with her workouts, and kept an eye on her physical condition (like when he recognizes her illness as the result of a spell in "The Witch"). Compare that to... everything Wes did in season 3 of BtVS. Wes was worse than useless to both Buffy and Faith. Now, you could make a reasonable argument that the people who fired Wes should themselves resign for training him so badly, but that wouldn't change the fact that he was a miserable failure.

Statement: The Watchers' Council is to the Knights Templar as the Initiative is to U.S. Special Ops.

[bespangeled]

I love Wesley. He is one of my favorite characters in the B-verse. And he so deserved to be fired. But it was the fault of the CoW because he should never have been given that job. The only reason I can see for him getting it was sheer nepotism. Daddy dearest pulled strings to get him there expecting another failure and disappointment.

Statement: Willow should never have been used by Giles to resoul Angel. She was not his slayer and he had no right to give a 16 year old a dangerous skill and not train her in ethics. Angel's soul shouldn't have been restored, and he shouldn't have returned from Acathla's hell dimension.

[Nina]

Statement: The Watchers' Council is to the Knights Templar as the Initiative is to U.S. Special Ops.

False ( I think, not American and don't know really all that much about the Special Ops), I don't think the CoW is anything like the Knight Templar. The CoW is to it's core an organisation that protects the world from evil forces. Either by training slayers, training new watchers, research or by going themselves into battle.

Statement: Willow should never have been used by Giles to resoul Angel. She was not his slayer and he had no right to give a 16 year old a dangerous skill and not train her in ethics. Angel's soul shouldn't have been restored, and he shouldn't have returned from Acathla's hell dimension.

I believe that the whole 'ensouling' of Angel (espcially in BtVS season 2) is wrong. There is a reason that the Roma picked this as their ultimate revenge. Death would've been much more merciful for Angel himself. I never understood why there was never a debate about if it is right to do it in the first place. Letting Willow do it, makes it all even more problematic.

That said, Angel is my favourite Buffyverse character. I wouldn't have wanted to miss his journey and I think the Buffyverse would've been less rich without one of the best characters and arcs they ever wrote. So false about the part where he shouldn't have returned.




Statement: It was a mistake to cast actors who were nearly 10 years older than their (teenage) characters.