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  • #91
    False. It was because he was aware how awful it is to tell someone "oh, and BTW, you're going to die tomorrow" and how terrible that would make them feel.

    Statement: Faith was the only character who had a real character arc in season 3 of BtVS.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
      Statement: Faith was the only character who had a real character arc in season 3 of BtVS.
      FALSE.

      - Giles becomes Buffy's actual father figure. Their relationship becomes closer.

      - Buffy fully accepts her role as the Slayer after the 'Faith experiment' fails.

      - Willow decides becoming more magically powerful, helping Buffy save the world, and remaining physically close to Buffy is much more important than academic achievement.

      Willow's confidence continues to grow.

      - Spike has "a real character arc" in the span of a single episode.

      - Angel decides to leave Buffy (even though he's essentially 'pushed into it' by the advice of Spike, the Mayor, and Joyce).


      Relatively, SPIKE has a bigger character arc than Faith. Faith was a troubled Slayer and ends up in a coma. She's jealous of Buffy throughout to the point she tries to steal Buffy's boyfriend, get her own 'father figure', etc. Spike in the span of an episode begins the Spike-Willow relationship, plants the seeds for the Buffy/Angel breakup, gives more hint that he's 'into' Buffy, and shows up a drunken mess and ends up happily singing. It isn't until probably Season 9 that Faith is happy and no longer jealous of Buffy and Buffy's life.



      STATEMENT: Jesse is probably a key real reason Willow and Xander weren't popular. Xander showed he could have joined a sports team. Willow could simply dress better and have some more confidence. Both Xander and Willow aren't relatively bothered by Jesse's death. And having Buffy as their new best friend instantly increases Willow and Xander's popularity.
      Last edited by MikeB; 24-08-18, 02:38 PM. Reason: added a statement

      Comment


      • #93
        TTB's statement:

        Never thought about that before, but yeah.... it's true I think. Some big things were set up (Willow's magic, Angel slowly preparing to leave Sunnydale) but those are not real arcs.

        Mike B's statement:

        False, there is no good reason to suggest that Jesse made them uncool or that they were considered more cool after his death. Them not giving a damn about his death is absurd, but I don't think we should give that too much weight. The writers just wanted to shock with an unexpected death in the first episode IMO.





        The Girl in Question is the worst (TV-)episode in the Buffyverse.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by MikeB View Post
          FALSE.

          - Giles becomes Buffy's actual father figure. Their relationship becomes closer.

          - Buffy fully accepts her role as the Slayer after the 'Faith experiment' fails.

          - Willow decides becoming more magically powerful, helping Buffy save the world, and remaining physically close to Buffy is much more important than academic achievement.

          Willow's confidence continues to grow.
          In other words, absolutely the same as in seasons 1 and 2. None of the main characters show any real change from where they were in season 2. Some of them are regressed to early season 2 and then end up at the same place as they were in late season 2.

          - Spike has "a real character arc" in the span of a single episode.
          He is crying over Drusilla, then decides to go and be proactive by tying her up and torturing her to win her back. I guess you could say that's some sort of a minor character arc...

          Regardless, Spike was not a main character, and a lot of characters get a "one episode character arc". You could say that Chanterelle/Lily/Anne is the character with the biggest real character arc - over the span of one episode. Buffy also has a character arc within that same episode. She just doesn't have one for the rest of the season.
          - Angel decides to leave Buffy (even though he's essentially 'pushed into it' by the advice of Spike, the Mayor, and Joyce).
          That's not an arc - that's something he decides in the last couple of episodes. Before that, he's just hanging around and feeling guilty, and he and Buffy break up and make up a bunch of times.

          Relatively, SPIKE has a bigger character arc than Faith. Faith was a troubled Slayer and ends up in a coma. She's jealous of Buffy throughout to the point she tries to steal Buffy's boyfriend, get her own 'father figure', etc.
          That's not really a good summary of Faith's arc at all. And it's not true that Faith was jealous to the point of stealing Buffy's boyfriend throughout - she never tried to steal Scott Hope (on the contrary), she never tried to steal Angel until th Mayor suggested it; and if anything, she was jealous of the attention Buffy was giving to Angel, rather than to her. And Buffy was jealous of Faith in Faith, Hope and Trick.
          Faith wanted to be close to Buffy and wanted her to be her friend. But she was also disappointed and distrustful of people, including Buffy and the Scoobies after Revelations, and Bad Girls/Consequences was her turn to the dark side, due to a bunch of reasons.

          Spike in the span of an episode begins the Spike-Willow relationship, plants the seeds for the Buffy/Angel breakup, gives more hint that he's 'into' Buffy, and shows up a drunken mess and ends up happily singing.
          .
          What Spike/Willow relationship? There's none. The Buffy/Angel breakup happens at the end of that episode (Buffy breaks up with Angel) and lasts for less than 2 episodes. And even if it lasted longer, that has nothing to do with Spike's character arc. Spike is not giving any hints that he's "into" Buffy at that point (and I don't think he really was).
          .................................................. ........

          Anyway, to the current question.
          Originally posted by Nina View Post

          The Girl in Question is the worst (TV-)episode in the Buffyverse.
          Absolutely true, The Girl in Question is the worst Buffyverse TV episode by far. I've ranted about it way too many times, including recently.

          Statement: Spike wasn't even remotely in love with Buffy in season 2/3. He was completely in love with Drusilla. The reason why Drusilla thought Spike was "surrounded" by Buffy (in the Fool for Love flashback) was because, as we know, Drusilla can see glimpses of the future, so she knew he would fall in love with Buffy in the future.
          Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 24-08-18, 02:56 PM.
          You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

          Comment


          • #95
            TimeTravellingBunny


            * What was Faith Lehane's character arc that was so much greater than all those I mentioned? She's partly evil throughout BtVS S3. She slowly makes Buffy more like her. Faith arguably have a greater impact on the character arcs of Buffy and Willow than Faith had a character arc. [I'll probably respond to your responses in a separate thread.]


            * Spike was at least partly in love with Buffy in BtVS S2 and BtVS S3. It's simply he much preferred Drusilla.



            STATEMENT: Jonathan Levinson was eviler than Andrew Wells.

            Comment


            • #96
              True!

              Jonathan knew Buffy on a personal level. She's saved his life more than once, including stopping him killing himself. She forgave him for his actions in Superstar, which put them all in danger . . . and yet he still joins The Trio and wants to take over Sunnydale, knowing that will bring him into direct opposition with The Slayer. The only thing I cut him some slack for is that he may be mentally ill and just need further treatment, but even then . . . I still despise him.

              Statement - Xander was never in love with Cordy

              Comment


              • #97
                False I think, he might not have liked her as much as she liked him. But I do think that he was in love with her for a short period.



                The fandom is (in general) too harsh on Dawn and Connor as characters/additions to the show.

                Comment


                • #98
                  False about Dawn, True about Connor

                  I love Dawn, and I think the hatred has lessened over the years, but it's still at the same level with Connor. He is so hated

                  Statement - Doyle was not a fully realised character and what we did see wasn't very interesting

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    True, but it's not weird. They had to fire the actor because of off-screen trouble with him and thus Doyle had to be written out before they could develop him. There was a lot of potential considering that he was pretty much the opposite of Angel. Both were alcoholic Irishmen (yeah, stereotypes everywhere) but one lost himself when he was searching to become part of something grand and meaningful (Liam/Angel) while the other (Doyle) was perfectly happy with his normal life and started drinking to deal with the fact that he became part of something grand and meaningful. I always thought that it was an interesting combo.


                    Talking about stereotypes...

                    For a show/verse that wanted to turn some stereotypes upside down, they used a lot of messed up stereotypes. (drinking Irishmen, vengeful Roma, mobster Italians, only one black guy in the main cast and he was also the only gangster etc.)

                    Comment


                    • True, unfortunately. You can also add stuffy Englishmen. The "Gypsy curse" was the worst - the stereotype of magic-practicing, curse-throwing Roma.

                      Statement: If Glenn Quinn hadn't been fired/Doyle killed off, Doyle/Cordelia would have been a long-standing ship, Angel/Cordelia would have never become a thing in a romantic sense, and the show would have been better off for it.
                      You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                      Comment


                      • False

                        Cordelia would never have fallen for Doyle, and their relationship worked well just as Cordy/Wesley did. The only man for Cordy was Angel

                        Statement - Andrew Wells should never have become a Scoobie and should be in Mexico/prison/dead

                        Comment


                        • True, I don't really care what should happen to him. But the idea that they gave this irresponsible figure so much power is absurd and simply wrong. But the Scoobies already kind of sold out by ignoring Anya's crimes and lack of guilt for years. Meanwhile Team Angel had Harmony on board (Thanks Wesley!), in the name of humor everything is apparently acceptable for the writers.


                          Groo might have only appeared in a few episodes, but the guy seriously overstayed his welcome.

                          Comment


                          • Very true. One of the worst characters ever to appear on AtS. It always felt like he belonged on some cheap 1980s B-rate fantasy show/movie, instead. His look always makes me think of those infamous Manowar album covers.

                            Statement: The writing in Buffyverse got terrible every time the writers tried to tackle history or other (non-Anglo) cultures/countries.
                            You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

                            Comment


                            • Yup true. It's not only terrible because of all the stupid steretypes and the bad research. But they missed so many chances. By example Angel, a main character... They created a character who grew up in horrible situation (repression by the English state, radicalised religious people everywhere, a famine, a proud family losing their status and money because of the repression) plus the Irish were mistreated for centuries after his birth and they don't do anything with it. If they created another background for him (let's say a protestant guy from Oxford), Angel would probably be exact the same person in the show. So why introduce his Irishness if you don't do anything with it? Just because of the Claddagh ring?



                              The character Cordelia Chase was more damaged by Ats season 3 than by Ats season 4.

                              Comment


                              • False - I really enjoy Cordy in S3 and I find most of the cast unbearable in Season 4

                                Statement - The writers shouldn't have killed off Lilah in S4 AtS

                                Comment

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